Julie Gould 00:10
Hello and welcome to Working Scientist, a Nature Careers podcast. I’m Julie Gould.
This is the sixth and final episode of the career planning series, supported by the International Science Council.
In June 2025, Dame Professor Ottoline Leyser stepped down as the CEO of URKI, or UK Research and Innovation, the non-departmental public body of the government that handles science and research funding in the UK.
She’s been in this position since 2020, and during her time there, she helped reshape the UK Research and Innovation landscape by streamlining funding processes and fostering a more joined up collaborative ecosystem.
She has also advanced initiatives like the Future Leaders Fellowships, place-based impact schemes and narrative CVs.
I spoke with Ottoline in December 2024 as she was starting to think about her step down and transition back into an academic role at the University of Cambridge.
We had a wonderful conversation about careers and career paths and the work that she has been doing, not just as part of her role at the UKRI, but also throughout her career, focusing on bringing diversity to research career paths by bringing attention to the fact that career paths in research don’t have to be the prescribed ones that you often hear about in academia, but that there are many, many ways to be a research scientist.
As with the other episodes in this series, this one concludes with a sponsored slot from the International Science Council, with the support of the China Association for Science and Technology.
The ISC is exploring how early and mid-career researchers can navigate their careers in a constantly-evolving scientific landscape through conversations with emerging and established scientists.
Julie Gould 01:59
Professor Dame Ottoline Leyser had what you can call a traditional academic career: PhD, postdoc, postdoc and then lecturer, and in 2011 she became heavily involved in the formation of the independently-funded Sainsbury Laboratory at the University of Cambridge.
During this time she developed an interest in policy work, which is why the position of CEO at the UKRI was a great opportunity for her to focus her efforts on this part of the scientific environment.
Here’s the thing, though, Ottoline never planned on being the CEO of UKRI.
It was planned happenstance in action, but she has spent a lot of time considering what is important to her in order to be able to thrive in the roles that she is in.
This is where our conversation starts, talking about career planning and what it really means to her.
And I found it really fascinating how she explains that ultimately, there are no rules on how you do your career.
If you want to be an academic, you don’t have to follow the prescribed route that you’re told about. There are many other ways
Ottoline Leyser 02:55
I on the whole find the notion of career planning, and the way most people interpret that, as actually unhelpful to what I would consider to be really good career planning.
So for me, you’ve got to start with who you are and your values.
You’ve got to start with what really matters to you, what you want to get out of life, what you care about, what you don’t care about, the kind of environment you want to be in, the kind of person you want to be.
I don’t like the work-life balance concept, because that implies there’s your work over here, and your life over here, and you’re somehow….
You’re one person. I’m one person. I have one life. It includes some work. It includes some other stuff.
So to me, it’s about kind of coherence about who I am and what I do.
And all of the choices I’ve made have been based on on that. Does this, does this fit who I am not, you know, I want to do this, and then I want to do that.
But the trouble with career planning is it tends to lock people down into the concept that they would like to be an X in however many years time.
And you’re not your job. You are who you are. And you can build a really fulfilling career by following who you are, and keeping your eyes on the full range of opportunities available to you to be who you are. And it’s not going to be one thing.
A lot of the challenges, I think, in research careers, are people get locked into this idea that there’s really only one pathway, and that’s the only way you can make use of your research skills and your research interests. And it’s so untrue.
There are so many opportunities for people with a, with a kind of research frame of mind.
And it’s a tragedy, really, that people are not encouraged to look at that full range of things and build for themselves the kind of career that meets their needs, their priorities, matches their values.
Julie Gould 05:08
Okay, so this is talking a little bit about career path diversity, which is something I know you’re very, very passionate about. So tell me a little bit more about that and why that is so important to you.
Ottoline Leyser 05:18
One of the extraordinary things about a research frame of mind or research way of thinking is the extraordinary range of opportunities that are available to you.
And yet we, all of us, think about a research career as you go to university and never leave.
And you’ve got to get through, you know, you’ve got your PhD and your postdoc and another postdoc. And it’s very precarious, and then you’ve got that in and that.
All my career people have told me that there are rules, you know, you’ve got to do this and you’ve got to do that, or it will or won’t work.
And I’ve, you know, It’s patently not true.
Almost all the rules people tell you about how to succeed, you can find people having wonderful careers, even in of the kind of prescribed sort that you think about, where they’ve broken all of those rules. You know, when to have your children, all of that kind of stuff. There just aren’t any rules.
So that’s, that’s the first thing, I think.
The second thing is, I think research career, I mean, research environments hugely benefit from diversity, from different people with different ideas and different ways of thinking about things. You’ve had different experiences and bring different things in.
And I am concerned that that standard academic career path has become so constrained that we have actually crushed diversity out of it.
And that, I think, is a huge challenge for the quality of research that’s going on in universities around the world.
One of the most obvious things I see, for example, is if you’re thinking about diversity in terms of legally-protected characteristics.
People look at the professoriate and say, “You know, it’s terrible. There aren’t enough women or there aren’t enough Black people.”
We need to understand why that is and do something about it. What they then do is track back down the straightforward, linear academic career path and ask, “Where are people with those characteristics lost? At what point do they disappear, and therefore are not represented at the more senior levels.”
It’s extraordinary. They don’t disappear. They’re still perfectly wonderful people who are in the world doing perfectly wonderful jobs.
And if you want to diversify the professoriate, you need to appoint people to it who haven’t been on exactly the same career path as everybody else.
And that is beginning to happen now, which is very exciting with an increasing number of so-called professors of practice in the UK context,
I don’t know why you have to call them professors of practice. Why aren’t they just professors?
And bringing people in who’ve had really exciting research experiences, in industry, in the public sector, in policy, whatever it is. Those experiences deeply enrich a research culture environment, for example, and we in academia for example.
And we need those people. And so that the strange notion of an incredibly constrained career path where you have to squeeze yourself through some kind of narrow gateway every stage, it’s very unhelpful.
It’s not helpful for researchers early in their careers, thinking, “How am I going to manage this terrifying thing?”
And it’s not helpful for the quality of the research environments that we’re building.
Julie Gould 08:43
So how do we help these younger career researchers see that, you know, you don’t have to go through, like you said, all those little gates, to climb up that prescribed career ladder, but that you can veer off and there are ways back in, should you want to, for example, go away and do some time in industry and come back and come back into academia?
How do we help them see that that is a possibility?
Ottoline Leyser 09:08
So this is a really important question, because it is inherently the case that many people at an early stage in their career in academia are being advised and mentored by people who are in academia, and most people who are in academia have not worked anywhere else, and they love their jobs.
So the advice that a lot of those junior people are getting is is quite narrow and constrained advice.
And I think that’s a challenge, and I think so I know a lot of universities, for example, have career services that are open to the undergraduates and sometimes PhD students too, but I think they need also to be open to postdoctoral researchers, and there are a lot of resources out there to support people. I’m also a big believer in internship opportunities, and so on and so forth.
But deeply and fundamentally, it’s about it’s a cultural thing. It’s that a lot of people in academia early in their career are getting the message that actually, that linear, boring academic career path is the only success, that’s the one, that’s the way, the truth and the light.
And if you do anything else, you’ve disappeared, you’ve lost, you’ve gone. And that’s got to change. And that’s something that I hope as we think about things like the assessment criteria that we use for all of the competitive activities that there are in the research system.
And it will always be competitive, because there’s never enough money to do all of the cool things there are the rules for winning those competitions.
They’ve got to shift. They’ve got to be much broader and more diverse, so that we properly capture the full range of of everything that we need in the system.
And so that’s the other thing that we can all do is, is reject the notion that success equals Nature publications. Sorry….
Julie Gould 11:02
I don’t take that personally at all. Don’t be offended by this question, but you are a big advocate for diverse career paths, but you yourself have taken a very traditional academic career path, like, how do you reflect on your own career as a result of being heavily involved in this?
Ottoline Leyser 11:20
So as I said before, one of the amazing things about an academic career is it’s actually a very flexible and diverse career.
So I have had the opportunity to do an extraordinary range of things over my career whilst wearing that one hat.
So you know, I’ve worked with the Nuffield Council on Bioethics. I’ve worked various international organizations. I’ve done a lot of work with the government, even before I came into this job, teaching and thinking about, you know, pedagogy and, and all of the work on research culture I started long ago.
So it’s been a job that you could reinvent multiple times along the way. And I’ve enjoyed it, all of it.
And, you know, coming into this job, big step, rather different set of things, also somehow, kind of part of the journey. I have never felt that it was the only option. It’s not like I never thought about other things or moving.
I had various opportunities to move in various places. And as I said at the beginning, what it comes back down to is, how can I continue to work in a way that aligns with who I am and what I want to achieve?
And I’ve been very fortunate to have those opportunities the whole time and to be able to make the decisions I’ve made.
And yeah, of course, stuff happens, and your priorities change and your constraints change.
I have two children. They’re very wonderful. I, you know, spent time differently in the days when they were young.
My, having said that, my husband worked from home, and so he was the main provider. So it was very straightforward for me.
Probably the hardest time, from that point of view, was he sadly died nearly 10 years ago now, with cancer.
And the year he was ill with cancer was, I was that was really tough in all kinds of ways.
And so, yeah, I mean, stuff happens, life happens, and the decisions you make are, as I say, have got to be about you, and what matters to you.
Going after some kind of narrow set of achievements that you’ve set yourself, to me, is not, it’s not fulfilling. It’s not what it’s about. It’s about how you’ve lived your life, I suppose.
Julie Gould 14:16
Okay. Well, looking forward then to how you are going to be living your life.
In June 2025 you will be ending your secondment here at UKRI as the CEO. Do you have any plans in place of what you’re going to do next?
Are you going back to Cambridge University? Are you doing something new? Are you taking a break, a well earned rest? What’s on the cards?
Ottoline Leyser 14:38
I am going back to Cambridge. Well, I suspect I’ll take the summer off. I think that’s okay, but I’m going back to Cambridge. I, you know, I miss the things I was doing, you know, I miss research, I miss teaching, get back to those in some sense.
My group has wound down completely. So how I. I what I do from a research point of view, is still unclear to me. I almost certainly will be working much more in collaboration than starting a group from scratch.
And then the thing I’m really keen to continue to do, I think underpinning a lot of these things that we’ve talked about actually, are the fact that, for a variety of reasons, the way we think about science, broadly defined, in the West in the 21st century, has shifted away from what science really is to the point that science is a thing done by clever people in Chinese laboratories.
And that, I think, that underpins a lot of the cultural challenges we’ve talked about. It’s done by, you know, Einstein figures in white coats, rattling test tubes. And if you’re, if you if you don’t want to be one of those, why would you pick a career in science?
If you have picked a career in science, you’re inevitably going to be permanently, you know, living with imposter syndrome, because obviously nobody is one of those.
So I think that that notion of what science is is really at the core of a lot of these challenges with research culture and the pressures that we’ve talked about.
And at the same time, I think it’s very disempowering for people who don’t think of themselves as scientists. So this notion that clever scientists over there will fix it for you is actually incredibly undermining to sort of agency in society.
And so I think we need, we need to kind of re-engineer where science sits in our thinking to be much more about what it is.
It’s a very basic human thing about how we understand the world around us, how we, how we are, yeah, empowered to make things better. It’s a kind of amazing set of problem-solving tools.
It’s not about eliminating uncertainty. It’s about navigating it really effectively. And if we can societally, kind of recapture that as a core kind of public good set of tools available to everybody, then I think all kinds of things would feel better.
We’re in a very difficult time, I think, from a kind of geopolitical point of view, where polarization is the norm.
And that sense, instead of coming together to solve some of these challenges, because we have the tools to do it, that’s one of the most powerful ways, I think, out of the nation that, you know, it’s all very bad and it’s their fault, which is, is, is underpinning a lot of the narrative there is globally.
So, you know, changing the perception of science is something I’m really excited to try to get some more levers on.
There’s brilliant work in lots of places, on, on, on that topic. Just, even just bringing it together and amplifying the volume would be a wonderful thing to do.
Julie Gould 18:06
Ottoline, thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me. It’s been really, really interesting. Thank you.
Ottoline Leyser: 18:08
Thank you.
Julie Gould 18:11
Thank you. That was a great conversation that I had with Dame professor, Ottoline Leyser, who completed her time at the UKRI in the summer of 2025.
I really loved her reflection on her own career path towards the end of our conversation, and that for her, what was always important was finding ways to work that aligned with her values and beliefs, regardless of what life threw at her.
So that’s it for this series on career planning from Working Scientist. I hope you enjoyed it and that you can take some practical tips away from it.
But before you go, here’s our sponsored slot from the International Science Council on career development for early and mid career researchers in an ever evolving scientific landscape.
Thanks for listening. I’m Julie Gould.
Izzie Clarke: 19:00
Hello and welcome to this final podcast, presented in partnership with the International Science Council, with the support of the China Association for Science and Technology. I’m science journalist Izzie Clarke.
Across this series, we’ve explored how young scientists can navigate career development in an ever-changing scientific ecosystem. And, in this final episode, we’ll discuss the future of scientific collaboration.
Joining me are Professor Yongguan Zhu from the Chinese Academy of Sciences.
He’s the Director General for the Research Center for Eco-Environmental Sciences, and also the Vice-President for Membership of the International Science Council.
Yongguan Zhu: 19:49
Hi. Hello.
Izzie Clarke: 19:50
And Dr Charah Watson, Executive Director at the Scientific Research Council in Kingston, Jamaica.
Charah Watson: 19:52
Hi, how are you?
Izzie Clarke: 19:53
Very well, thank you.
Science today is more global and interconnected than ever. So, when you hear the phrase ‘science across boundaries’, what does that mean to each of you and why does that matter?
Charah, would you like to start on that one?
Charah Watson: 20:12
Sure. So, science without boundary means science without limitations or restrictions of geographic location, of culture — of anything. Because science is about facts. Science is about discovering the facts of it all and presenting it so that it can be utilized to advance whatever it is we’re trying to advance.
It becomes extremely important that the scientific principles and scientific methods are upheld so that whatever we present can be trusted. And without barriers, it helps to improve the trust factor of the science that we are putting out.
Izzie Clarke: 20:51
Absolutely. And Yongguan, what does ‘science across boundaries’ mean to you?
Yongguan Zhu: 20:55
I think in this globalized world, science is the common language. Probably it’s the only common language that can unite the people across borders, languages and also cultural barriers. So, really something that we share together and to advance the human prosperity together in this global village.
Izzie Clarke: 21:20
And how would you say scientific research has evolved beyond academic labs and institutions and anything else similar to that more recently, Yongguan?
Yongguan Zhu: 21:33
I think that society actually needs more transformative science that can help the transition towards a more green and a healthy future. So, science is not just stay within the community of scientists. But we should translate our discoveries into solutions for real-world problems, and also to educate to the general public to improve the society as a whole, particularly in the area of sustainability science, which really involves every member of the society, regardless of your location, your wealth and health, etc.
Izzie Clarke: 22:15
Yes, we had an earlier episode where one of our guests talked about this one world, we have one home. Charah, what do you think about that?
Charah Watson: 22:23
What we have seen is with this thrust of entrepreneurship, it’s being encouraged, it’s right throughout society, what it means is that discovery and development of technologies, solutions, most of which will employ scientific principles that are not happening within laboratories, that are not happening within academic institution. And that is because we are all experiencing the world together, we are all experiencing the challenges, so therefore some of us will start thinking about solutions. And once you start thinking that way, most likely you will find science happening within community.
And here in Jamaica, in particular, we have what we call a National Innovation Awards. And most of the applications for these awards are from persons who are not connected with any kind of institution, which is demonstrating to us that persons are utilizing basic scientific principles to find answers to issues that are being faced.
Izzie Clarke: 23:24
And I suppose on the theme of that, what role do you think citizen science has to play in the future of science, as well?
Charah Watson: 23:34
A fundamental one. The average citizens cannot be excluded because one of the first basis for us is always reviewing what is happening on the ground, getting your observations. And where you’re going to get most of those from? The citizens. And I’m happy to see that when you’re talking about traditional societies, folklore practices and advancements made from those that we are seeing, it’s very important now to ensure that you include Indigenous knowledge holders, so they cannot be excluded at all.
Izzie Clarke: 24:01
Yongguan?
Yongguan Zhu: 24:02
I think by engaging the citizens will help disseminate the science. That’s the first importance. The second is, actually, by engaging the citizens also, we encourage the young people to become interested in science so we can forge our future generations of scientists. We need a continuous supply of talents. So, I think the citizen science can also play a role in that regard.
Izzie Clarke: 24:35
Yeah, absolutely.
And Charah, are there any misconceptions or challenges about cross-sector or international research that you’d actually like to challenge?
Charah Watson: 24:47
Well, most research science, any kind of exploration, will require cross-sectional approach. There’s nothing that is happening in isolation. And one of the misconceptions is that it is difficult or almost impossible to do, which it’s not. And I will dare to say that it’s what we have always been doing. But now being more intentional and more strategic, and connecting the dots from very early instead of figuring it out down the road, you’re looking at all the cross connectivity.
Communication is always a challenge, especially science communication is something that you practice and you get better at. Because even when I attend scientific conferences, a lot of it goes over my head because we speak in certain jargons and we are missing that opportunity to communicate with the whole. We need a collaborative approach in addressing the issues or challenges and see the alignment with the various sectors that might be involved.
Izzie Clarke: 25:52
Yeah, and I think it takes courage, doesn’t it, to say, actually, can you explain that? But I think when you’re collaborating with people that communication is so important.
And Yongguan, what are some of the opportunities and potential challenges, as well, that early- and mid-career researchers should be mindful of when it comes to working across academia, industry, public sectors or with other communities?
Yongguan Zhu: 26:19
I think for early-career scientists, they should be prepared to encounter difficulties. There is always difficulties but we should not be afraid of difficulty because anything we want to achieve is always try to overcome obstacles. So, don’t be afraid of difficulties, be persistent.
And another point is we should be always mindful about opportunities. Even serendipities in my own career, many serendipities actually lead to successful collaboration. So, we just have to be looking for opportunities and seize opportunities to make networks. This is very important.
Izzie Clarke: 27:07
Yeah, that’s great advice.
So, Charah, from your own experiences, what was a standout initiative that you were part of that crossed boundaries — whether that’s across sectors, disciplines or different countries? And what would you say were some of your biggest learnings from that experience?
Charah Watson: 27:24
So, at the Scientific Research Council, a lot of our work is geared to our supporting Jamaica’s agricultural industry. We have to interface with different government agencies, international partners, other international research institutions, because what you find in smaller countries like Jamaica, while we have a lot of research prospects, we don’t have the wherewithal to execute all of the different activities within our research projects.
It comes back again to ensuring that you have a very clear strategy in place in how to handle communication and interaction. And I believe we’re at a point now where we can clearly indicate and communicate with our partners. We have access to international funding. And you find that a lot of countries that are developing has that concern. While there might be access to funding, there’s a misalignment of agenda. And that comes a lot through miscommunication, not being confident enough to express what your needs are and how you might fit in, instead of just taking on and say yes.
Izzie Clarke: 28:38
Is there anything that you found, in particular, that helps you navigate those sorts of situations?
Charah Watson: 28:45
Yes. It comes to building relationships. You’re understanding where each person, each country’s coming from so that what you’re developing together, what you’re designing together, it’s more aligned and the outcomes are more in line with our overall objectives.
Izzie Clarke: 29:04
And Yongguan, for researchers that are just starting out, how can they begin to find or create those new sort of collaborative opportunities?
Yongguan Zhu: 29:15
My advice would be don’t be shy, be open-minded. And, also, we often say that opportunities are for prepared minds, but that’s not enough. Actually, we should be more outgoing to create opportunities for your career development. Look for opportunities and create opportunities for collaboration.
Charah Watson: 29:40
I totally agree with Yongguan. Opportunity favours the prepared mind and creating your own opportunities, creating your own doors, and even opening it yourself and showing others that you can walk through — and walk through with me — is important.
For me, I benefitted a lot from great mentors. And they chose me. And there must have been something about me being open, demonstrating that I don’t know most things and I want to learn more things. And the right mentors, the right individuals that can support you, will come on board.
Izzie Clarke: 30:18
And I suppose that goes back to almost what Yongguan was saying earlier, as well — just look out for those opportunities and seize them when they make themselves known.
So, looking to the future, what excites you most about where science and scientific careers are heading?
Charah Watson: 30:35
So, what excites me goes back to your very first question, which is science between disciplines, sectors and science without gender. Now, you are having more participation from all the genders and that is amazing, especially being a woman and knowing that science is more measured on its weight than on who is doing it and where it’s being done.
Izzie Clarke: 31:03
And if you could give one piece of advice to early- and mid-career researchers hoping to shape the future of science, what would it be? Charah?
Charah Watson: 31:13
Build relationships before you need them. Those are the most genuine and the most long-lasting. You need a team. So, it’s very important that you are aware of who you are, it’s essential. Then go out and build those relationships without any expectations in return, and that will support you in any career, whether it’s science, business, whatever you’re doing. Know who you are, know your why and build relationships before you need them.
Izzie Clarke: 31:42
And Yongguan?
Yongguan Zhu: 32:43
Yeah. My advice would be try to go beyond the conventional boundaries of science disciplines nowadays, because we are becoming increasingly more interdisciplinary and we should broaden our vision as much as possible. It’s a bit like climbing the mountain — the higher you get, the more comprehensive picture you will see. By seeing the big picture, you will find the more opportunities, more problems that you can address in your future works. That’s a small advice I would give. Thank you.
Izzie Clarke: 32:21
No, thank you. And thank you both for joining me today.
If you’re an early- or mid-career researcher and you want to build professional relationships across boundaries, then join the International Science Council forum for emerging scientists.
Visit the website council.science/forum to learn more. I’m Izzie Clarke, thanks for listening.
